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charlie j Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 8:56 PM
should it surprise us
All the comments are very interesting, as well as very true. But, should it surprise us? Think about all the other parts of the world where men rule their households. In some nations, men are legally allowed to beat rape and murder their wives if they feel necessary. Why is it that things don’t change there? In religions that allow bigamy, why don’t things change? Because the men that run those nations and organizations, and the men who are simple members like it the way it is. There is no reason for them to change. They know in their hearts that it’s wrong but they like their lives, and so they keep everyone else suppressed so that they will not try to change. What reason is there for the rules within the WTBS to change? The men who run the organization like their life style, particularly those representatives of the GB who are supported by the “publishers”. And the elders and servants get to determine how their households are run. Evan the elders wives who have their lives just the way they like it. They all justify it by saying that is God’s will so that they don’t have to explain themselves. There is no reason for them to change. So should it at all surprise us? Not really. But it doesn’t mean that WE have to like it or except it either. No matter how much they try to make us feel bad, we all know that we do have someone for us, here. A very good friend of mine once suggested that I watch a movie called The Truman Show and compare it to life within the organization. I know that he has made the same suggestion to others. I have never seen anything that is as close of a representation. It really shows that the majority of the people involved with the show liked things the way they were, they each personally benefited in some way from the control of Truman. So they had no reason to change.

Cheri Romero Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 5:22 PM
Hello to all of my friends
Hi all, MAN I enjoy all of the jokes and poems you send me. Maluenda, long time no talk to or hear. I am just dropping by to say that I am still here and miss the board. Take care all.

Earl Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 5:12 PM
truth and consequences
Someone help me with this Theoecratic Warfare stuff, can it be that those who write for WT are getting so old to be senile? I am going to get a copy of the Feb.07 WT to see for myself but something is very wrong here and the fact that they put it out there for all to see I can't imagine. And who came up with that slogan I never heard before about a lie being an untruth but etc. Sure sounds like a lawyer to me. Revelation 22:15 groups liars along with fornicator, murderers and idolotors and denies them entry to heaven. I found some of my notes from various writers that show how damaging a lie is. Witholding information is always a potential lie, some might call it a white lie but telling only part of the truth creates the same confusion as an outright untruth. A lie affects our spirituality in many ways, it creates a distrust for all mankind and it creates confusion, fear,uncertainty,resentfulness and suspicion. One only needs to think of a loved one who lied to them and was caught to know the damage done. We have a very human need to trust, I think we would go mad if we felt we had no one too trust.It is through trust that our value system grows and changes. Deception is always a choice, we infer that we merit a special status" Who does that sound like"? Is there ever a lie that is psycholically healthy, that causes growth rather than hurt, and from which no one is adversely affected? Our personal security is based on the assumption that the information we are given will be honest. When that is shaken or taken away it is not surprising that our lives can be temporarily ( or even, for some, permanently) shattered.Only the truth can make us feel secure. So considering how damaging lies can be I can see why they are considered a serious sin. Am I mistaken to believe that the WT is saying that it is ok to lie. From what I have read that is exactly what they are saying especially when we consider that witholding information is always a potential lie and we are shortchanging the person we are witholding from. I have seen and heard lies in the halls for many years but the excuse is always" we are not perfect" which is supposed to absolve them. Seems to me a lie is a worse sin than many that will get one DF'd. But to actually come out and promote dishonesty in the WT mag. is unbelievable.Please tell me if I am not understanding something here. Thanks and blessings to all

mt Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 4:45 PM
I am sad
Hi Sorry I write again with sadness in my heart. I just have been writing again, after a fortnight on our web-site, and nobody welcome me back. I am so sad in inside me. I think I really try to be warm and loving to all, but maby I don't try hard enough. sorry I am just sad right now and yes, as a human being I could use some kind words. I will not let my candle go out. And nobody should. I have nothing to be sad about, I know compared to all those who really suffer, but still I am only human. Regard mt

NF19 Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 11:19 AM
To TB
You didn't wear a tie and they dissed you? Here's what you do next time. Wear a DRESS!! Then see what they do. Tell them that since your wife couldn't make the meeting, you felt you were standing in for her by using the dress. Next week, go back to normal. Ought to be good for a laugh. You are right about the "punish the victim, honor the crook". This whole cult is screwed up.

Maluenda Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 10:31 AM
JM
I stand behind you all the way! Once when I was married to my ex and pregnant with my first child I ran into a girl who I was very good friends with for a summer when we were teenagers. We had instantly clicked and she was going to run away and I encouraged her to escape anyway she could. Well, she did. Six years later I was at a department store with my elder's wife mother and I saw Saundra standing across the jewelry counter. I shouted out her name with joy and ran to embrace her. She turned her back on me and said,"Don't talk to me I'm disfellowshipped and they'll get you too." I said, "I don't care your my friend and pressed her for info on where she lived etc. She wouldn't answer and kept her head bowed. When she finally looked up she was crying. Then she just walked away. My mother just pretended not to notice the whole incident. So my dear friend shunned me to protect me from the church. My grandmother was one of the 144.00. She never shunned anyone it was against her nature and when I saw my friend it was against my nature not to love them and reach out to them. So I stand with you JM. If you can't be loyal to thy own then what good are you to have around. With friends and family like that who needs enemies?

TB Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 10:26 AM
Shunning
I looked up Robert King's entry on Wikipedia, and found a JW-owned site that was URL-linked to his biography. It was a JW-apologist site. Wikipedia is pretty good at objectivity (two sides to every issue). I admire Robert, even though I'm a JW. The JW site seemingly was founded simply to bad-mouth Robert. It also (I guess because Robert's info is particularly feared by some JW's) bashes Robert. The JW apologist/Robert bashing info runs off the rails pretty quickly, mostly on the grounds of logic. Sweeping statements are made that negates all of these molestation experiences and claims found here on Silent Lambs, simply on the basis of the writer's own personal experience. I keep telling people that you don't find many molestation victims in the Halls to interview and talk to simply because they have been run out of the truth. There are plenty of Creeps and Perps still in the Halls though. This JW writer just simply cannot acknowledge that anyone who has a negative experience with Elders can be authentic (worship of man?). But then (in education-impaired JW Logic) after refusing to acknowledge that JW's could possibly have molestation problems or that Elders do cover- ups, he then goes on to say that 'Oh yeah, there could be a few Elders that aren't doing things according to procedure'. Sound familiar? How about When Elders promulgate the erroneous position that Elders are ALWAYS appointed by GOD himself, but then when a Wicked Elder gets in, 'Oh, mistakes happen'. Which is it? Does God appoint all Elders or not? It's this Logic that usually is found in uneducated people that we are often found with. To hold two opposing ideas in your head at the same time is not the mark of intelligence, but rather the lack of it. Does God want me to be dumb in order to fully appreciate HIS truths or can I use my brain too? The apologist also takes on the subject of Shunning. He denies what many many many people have experienced (I've seen with my own eyes, this is not a vague anecdote) that they have been DF'd simply for talking to a DF'd person. I can take you to the material put out by the WTS that greenlights just that position. Ray Franz was DF'd not for books that he had not written yet, but for hanging out with his friend in Alabama that was DA'd. A post here just said: "When the elders found out that I was talking to others that had left the organization, I was d/f'd." I have seen this many times. And yet this is denied in the usually double speak parlance of JW Apologists. My way: Have JW friends but also have plenty of non-JW friends. That way the 'Brothers' can never use the act of stripping you away from your friends and family to get you to dance like a puppet on a string. You'll have plenty of friends still. The Elders are always quick to monitor if you have gotten rid of your 'worldly friends'. Just don't tell them so they canot hammer you down into the ground. Remember, Most of these Elders are not really qualified to do their Elder Jobs. Middle-aged male Egos are what power the Elders, not skills, love, compassion, faith, trust, intelligence, etc.. Not to long ago I was at the hall and I didn't wear a tie that day. Someone whom I have spoken to in the past there seemingly ignored me or rebuffed me that day. I acted like I could care less and at future meetings rebuffed him, ignoring his greeting to me. Believe me, he never did that again. He was trying to ignore me because I had no tie on and try and use that over me to 'moderate my behavior'. If you had no friends outside the hall you would be quite upset if you thought someone was blowing you off at the hall. It didn't bother me at all, and when he saw that he never tried that minor- shunning technique again. He was not an Elder by the way, the technique is ingrained in everyone. It's easier to be mean than to be nice. It's easier to frown than to smile. It's easier to smite than to love. It's easier to lie that to stand and tell the truth no matter what it does to you. I recommend the poem "IF" by Rudyard Kipling. Generations of schoolboys memorized this poems in the "Old Days". If Elders were to read it nowadays maybe it would shine some light to them on what it takes to be a real man. Not an androgenous entity that is busy instilling fear in other people and throwing their male weight around, but actually being the kind of man others admire because of the nobility of their character. When I think of noble people, I think of men like Bill Bowen and Robert King.

Maluenda Sunday, May 27, 2007
@ 10:18 AM
To Charlie
Yes, your comment really said it all. They protect the sinners and damn the saints. It's the pot calling the kettle black. I love you so I'm going to ignore you even if you lie dying in the street. Now that's real love. Blessings! By the way I guess I don't care for any of you because if you were lying in the street I'd have to help. Blessings.

mt Saturday, May 26, 2007
@ 5:50 PM
Hi everyone
Sorry I write this, but I am getting so sick to continue to read what witnesses write, right now. And I know you will understand me. I have for the last 3 hours been writing at a homepage called sol.dk. Translating from english/american to danish. A very good text, explaning how the light changed in 1917, and how it took up to 20 years before the witnesses changed their policy, even in Bethel Brocklyn. Afterwards I have been writing to a witness called ftg. He is even much worse, than the witness I argued with 2 months ago. We were arguing about Jeremias profety. Gods law written in our hearts. I wrote, that if Gods law are written in our heart, howcome the abusers still are molesting a child. And if Gods law are written in our heart, where are the free will. If you can follow me. I am not mad today, just sorry, because have I really been that blind and stupid as a witness? I hope not. Back in those days, there where not those informations at the internet, like today. But still I think, if there where, would I have been so blind? Poor all those childreen. As I also answered one of our dearest friends, (never a JW, but fighting among us), there are not many times with joy within JW, sit still for hours, listen go home and maby your father will not come in and ......................... Sorry writing this, I know some of you have been there, but I write it, because I hope so much, that if a witness read it, he or she will leave JW. But it was an answer too, what JW children can not join. Birthdays, christmass, and so on. And I ended up with abuse. Well just needed to get some air. Thank you for being here. And no matter what, I know you will not yell at me, or laugh. It's so good to know, because that I have tried too many times. God bless you and sleep tight. mt

JM Saturday, May 26, 2007
@ 2:20 PM

When the elders found out that I was talking to others that had left the organization, I was d/f'd. My Mother will not return my phone calls, returns all my letters. All pictures of me and my kids have been taken down off of the walls and photographs have been removed from the albums that tell our life story. My lifelong friends have been told that I am an 'Apostate' and will not speak to me. This is all a result of 'shunning'. What else can you say? Is it showing love through discipline, or just evil? I choose the latter because I have experienced it firsthand and know how it feels. My heart goes out to anybody else that has had this happen to them.

charlie j Saturday, May 26, 2007
@ 1:43 PM
MAN shunnig
When you look at MAN's comments and the comments about shunning, it really makes you think. Isn't it terrible? If a person questions a doctrine, or they report molestation and continue to talk and try to help others, then they are shunned, treated as though a criminal or dead. But in a case like Rick McLean, where his reputation even follows him when he changes congregations. His sins and crimes are kept secret for him and he is actually required to continue associating, going door to door, and are considered to be a good brother.

TB Saturday, May 26, 2007
@ 10:26 AM
Elder Control
A comment was made that the Elders said: "We are not the police. We have no contol over what others do." And this when they today have an unprecedented micro-managed control over the Rank and File in the Congs. They have complete control over evryones thoughts and minds in the congs. This is so typical of Elder-Think. They do not have to tell the truth because they believe in "Theocratic Warfare", EG: the can withold the truth from those they deem not deserving of it. Any calls to Brooklyn will be useless. You will just get a spinmeister. Check out the February 1st 2007 Watchtower, on pages six and seven, where the WTS gives Carte Blanche to Lying: "All lies are Untruths but not all Untruths are Lies". and a Caveat that if a JW does get caught in a Lie, he can always ask God for Forgiveness. Sound like something a (Long Island) Lawyer would dictate we believe? We are in the Thrall 0f thse JW Long Island Lawyers who are dictating policy to the WTS.

M.A.N. Friday, May 25, 2007
@ 5:48 PM
Re: Maluenda's call to NYC
I just wanted to point out that the WT doesn't even know the statistics on child abuse, much less how to handle it. When I got my Psych degree, the official statistics were that one out of six children (female and male were grouped as one) would be molested before they turned 18 years old. Of this group that would be molested, approximately 90 to 95 percent would be molested by family or close friends, with some studies indicating that the figure might be approaching 98%. And a female had a one in three chance of being molested and/or raped in her lifetime. This includes her childhood. This is an appalling statistic. I'm surprised the WT said one out of four, when it's one out of six. They are in effect saying it's worse than the experts claim. But we wouldn't expect accuracy from the WT anyway, would we? I'm also glad that Maluenda extrapolated this into a comparison of the JW population. I don't know how many children are counted among the six million JW's world- wide, but even assuming 600,000 are 18 years old or younger, then 100,000 will be molested by a family member or close friend. Since JW's usually have no association with non-JW's, this means that 100,000 acts of abuse will occur. Most pedophiles are repeat offenders, so I won't claim that this means that the JW's have 100,000 pedophile men in their ranks. But assuming maybe ten children per pedophile, which I think is a fair estimate, then there are 10,000 (ten thousand) pedophiles who are JW's in good standing. Yet the database in NYC contains 25,000 names. So this shows the JW's have a higher population of pedophiles than the world in general. No wonder they are screaming bloody murder about their precious "good name" not being ruined. NEWS FLASH TO WATCHTOWER: "YOU NO LONGER HAVE ANY GOOD NAME!!! YOU LOST IT DECADES AGO!!!!!" My statement to the WT is Admit your sins, pay for counseling, stop hurting victims, and stop lying. If you disobey this command, which is found in the Bible, you WILL pay for your actions. This is the Bible's standard. I suggest, for the first time in over 100 years, that you actually open and READ the Bible. Stop peddling your WT magazines full of your disgusting lies. Start using ONLY the Bible as the first century Christians did. When you can show the world a verse that shows that early Christians published their own literature to "explain" the letters from the various apostles, I'll give you one million dollars. Somehow, I doubt that you'll collect the money.

Friday, May 25, 2007
@ 5:40 PM
About shunning
I am glad that people who have been abused and therefore shunned are going to be helped by Silentlambs. Shunning in and of itself is abuse, regardless of the reason. It's a terrible thing to do to people, and there is no good, feasible reason for it, no matter what farfetched excuses the WTBTS feeds the naive and gullible 'rank and file', who can't think for themselves after their association as JWs with the WTBTS. The extreme pain, hurt, and suffering that shunning causes people is nothing short of intense and deep abuse. The WTBTS,the people at the "top" should be so very, very ashamed of themselves. If they try to tell the public, "Oh, we don't shun people, we would never do that", oh, so innocently, as if they're surrounded by shiny halos, then they are lying treacherously through their teeth. They most certainly do shun people and instruct their "flock" to shun people. It is beyond understanding how they can do that!

silentlambs Friday, May 25, 2007
@ 12:40 PM
Can you help?
We are looking for abuse survivors that have experienced shunning. We need your story to show how this affected your life and relationship with your family. We feel this is an important story that needs to be reported. We are currently working on a project to help educate the public on this issue that could have an impact worldwide. Your assistance could help thousands to find comfort and help. Please contact silentlambs as soon as possible at info@silentlambs.org if you can be part of this story. silentlambs

Maluenda Friday, May 25, 2007
@ 8:00 AM
To Charlie J et al
Isn't it interesting that the bible says that God gave us free will to choose and decide what is right and wrong yet, this organization has to have leaders to tell them what to do and the whole premiss of the happily ever after is to serve Jehovah day and night like a bunch of robots. My son was in town and went to see my parents. My hubby happened to call over there and my son answered the phone. Otherwise we wouldn't have known. My dad swore that he was just there for a half hour then left. My other relative not a JW told me yesterday that they had spent the day fishing. So is this another example of theocratic warfare? The elder can bold face lie so that he can keep his grandson away from his mother. What a great elder and shining example of love. I can truly say I am ashamed of my father.

Mod Team 1 Friday, May 25, 2007
@ 7:53 AM
To Jane
I would definitely say this site is run by some aspect of the borg. If you look at all the quotes on the site they are all about how wonderful, truthful, chosen, the JWs are. My guess is it is a site used to counter the numerous web sites that damage them by posting their own quotes from Watchtowers and other literature of the past that talks of hating your family (they belong to Satan's system of things), don't go to the zoo (it's wrong to imprison and gawk at animals), don't play chess (it's a war game), don't be a cheerleader (it encourages idol worship), etc. I couldn't find anything useful for research purposes it's all propaganda. Here's just one useless quote I found among several that were geared for "research": Why does this Web site exist? Why should you spend time here? This type of careful study of their publications is recommended by the Society for all "true Christians", as can be seen from the Watchtower, May 15, 1957: I think this pretty much sums it up. So in the words of the great borg my advice would be to stay away from evil and forget it exists.

charlie j Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 11:11 PM
how to deal with it
Your right the only way to possibly deal with it is to remember that they really in their hearts believe that they are doing the right thing. As crazy as that sounds they do. Even those who feel bad for the victims and try to think of them are torn because they still think that they need to follow the rules. I'm just glad that I am not part of that anymore. That I am able to think for myself now. And decide right from wrong without having to be told.

Maluenda Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 7:15 PM
RE: How do I deal with it?
Oh Charlie, how do I deal with it. My father was and is an elder too. My mother actually caught one of my abusers in the act. I thought she was there to save me. I was 5. I got in big trouble and whipped with a tree switch the next day for allowing it to happen. She also told me she'd tell the elders on me. Hence, my fault. My father, told me it was no big deal. He equated it to being flashed by a man when he was a boy. I just needed to get over it. He added to that-If you don't straighten up they'll remove me as an elder for not being in control of my family. I could go on for days about all the in your face signs that were there. The bottom line is they didn't care until I turned 12 and started talking. Then I was just crazy. They refused to get me help despite my pleas and suicidal tendencies and threats. Am I angry. Furious beyond words, sometimes to the point of thoughts of homicide. How do I keep that from destroying me? These people are sick-brainwashed. They are confused, uneducated, and most of all-egocentric and selfish beyond words. They are mentally ill. How could any parent, especially a mother, carry a child for 9 months deliver that child in agony, gaze into it's pure and innocent eyes and then allow it to be abused unless they are seriously disturbed? How can a father look at his daughter and say it's no big deal? The fathers I know would kill the perpetrator if they could get their hands on them! And if the child spoke out they would support them and help with counseling. But these people can't. The natural love that is instilled in all living creatures has been drained from their very souls and replaced with hatred. Read their literature-Hate the world, hate nonbelievers, hate, hate, hate, that's the message. When I asked my parents to make sure and bury the bodies of their grandchildren close by they had no response and no affect. It means nothing that their family will be killed. Because of their illness I can forgive them the evil acts they have allowed to victimize me over and over again. I have to say stop! No more! I have love for you. You are incapable of love in your present state. All you care about is your own salvation, no one elses. If there were to be Armeggeddon and I survived but my family didn't-I would always feel in my soul that something was missing. I know I could NEVER be happy knowing they were dead. That's love. They don't know love and because they are brainwashed we have to forgive them their ignorance. That's how I am able to stomach talking to them and allowing my children to visit with them supervised of course!

Maluenda Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 6:50 PM
To MAN
You are part of my new family. I love you and even though we are spread out all over the world ,literally!, I have you and all the others right here with me in my heart all the time! Now you need to get busy with that book!

charlie j Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 6:03 PM
family abusers
I would like to here from some of you. I know that there are others out there who have been let down when your family chooses to side with the congregation when you come forward about your abuser. And some of have been attacked by relatives. I know that my cousin was abused by her step father. And that she went to my mother about it and my mother turned her away, telling her that there was nothing that she could do to help her. As I think about that I can’t help but wonder, because at the time that I was molested my father was an elder in the congregation. Knowing how my parents feel and the policies that govern the elders. Did my father know that my attacker had a history, and chose to turn a blind eye? This question is weighing heavily on me. How do you deal with knowing that you family played a roll in the allowance of your abuse, in one way or another?

charlie j Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 5:55 PM
here to help you
I have noticed that there are several who have read this forum that are active JWs, or were never JWs, and even active JWs who read in secret. For those individuals I would like to try and help you understand the reason for the silence about this subject with in the organization. In the past the organization has spoken very negatively of other religions for having pedophiles and protecting them rather then their victims ( e.g. April 8 1993 Awake). It has even been stated that that is evidence that those religions do not have god’s blessing. Realize that to admit that they have this problem means they have to admit that the WTBS is not a perfect organization that has the complete protection of God. And unfortunately the governing body views that as a priority over protecting innocent members. It is not the goal of SL speak out against the WTBS as a religion. There are many who are active and are welcome here. A person has the right to believe what they feel is the truth regarding divinity. We just feel that these policies of silence and control need to be changed. And we want to let people know that it is ok to speak about abuse and realize that no one is alone, there are those of us out there who understand what the victims are going through.

M.A.N. Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 4:45 PM
To: Maluenda
Thanks again for the upbuilding comments and the hugs. I know many people say this, but you are one of the foremost people here in encouraging others. This is especially appreciated since you posted your background history. You aren't just a casual observer, you were in the trenches. Much affection to you. M.A.N.

Mod Team 1 Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 4:29 PM
To Justin Time
Just wanted to check in and say hi and we're thiking about you. Hope you had a great week!

Maluenda Thursday, May 24, 2007
@ 4:28 PM
To MAN
So nice to hear from you and have you back on the board! We miss you when your gone! A great big hug and welcome back! Blessings!

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